S3 Ep 46: Getting Slightly Salty - Restoring Oysters One Reef at a Time with Jen Sagan

What happens after an oyster is eaten?  For Jen Sagan, Oyster Restoration Manager with Friends of the Rappahannock, that's where the story really begins. In this episode of OYSTER-ology, Jen takes us into the muddy, sweaty, and surprisingly rewarding world of oyster restoration. We discuss how discarded oyster shells become the foundation for new reefs, why volunteers are essential to restoring Chesapeake Bay waterways, how oyster restoration and aquaculture work hand-in-hand, and why getting your hands dirty may be the best way to develop a lasting connection to the water. Along the way, Jen shares her journey from the mountains of New Jersey to the tidal waters of Virginia's Northern Neck, explains how oyster reef restoration actually works, and reveals why a lifelong vegetarian spends her days encouraging people to eat more oysters.

00:00 Muddy Oyster Life

00:33 Podcast Intro and Shells

01:22 Meet Jen Sagan

03:57 Friends of Rappahannock

05:04 Oyster Origins and First Taste

07:27 Why Oysters in College

08:31 Shell Recycling Program

10:55 Shell Shortage and Partnerships

12:42 Volunteers and Hands On Impact

16:24 Attracting Volunteers

18:41 Kayak Events and Repeat Helpers

21:40 Rappahannock Setting and New Tank

23:21 Spat on Shell Explained

27:11 Monitoring and Living Shorelines

31:03 Funding and Showing Results

33:55 Day in the Life on the Water

38:01 Big Picture Bay Recovery

39:17 Aquaculture and Misconceptions

42:15 Slightly Salty Sagan Story

46:32 Eat More Oysters Message

47:35 Closing and Call to Action

Links:

Friends of the Rappahannock website: https://riverfriends.org/

Volunteer Opportunities with Friends of the Rappahannock: https://riverfriends.org/

Slightly Salty Sagen on Instagram: @slightlysatlysagan

Chesapeake Bay Foundation: https://www.cbf.org

Credits:

Guest: Jen Sagan

Host: Kevin Cox

Digital Deckhand: Chet Jipty

Production: OYSTER-ology Podcast

Please be sure to Like and Follow OYSTER-ology wherever you listen to podcasts, and tell others about it. Every positive mention of it helps more people find the podcast!

Transcript

Transcript (prepared by Chet Jipty)

Getting Slightly Salty: Restoring Oysters One Reef at a Time With Jen Sagan

[bubbles]

Jen: any time that a tank is ready to go, I'm going out in the boat to install them onto a project. And-those days are dirty and sweaty and long and messy, but they are the best. I mean- there will be crabs and fish and little sea squirts and, I, I'm covered in mud all the time. And-It's my realization that I am in the job I want to be in.

[bubbles]

Kevin:

 Welcome to OYSTER-ology, a podcast about oysters, aquaculture, and everything from spat to shuck. I'm your host and the Foodwalker, Kevin Cox. An oyster's story doesn't necessarily end when it's eaten. That oyster's shell, scraped clean, slurped, and dumped into a bucket behind a restaurant or tossed aside after a backyard roast, can begin a second purpose because old oyster shells are often one of the essential building blocks of new oyster reefs. Shell by shell, reef by reef, people throughout our coastal waters, including the Chesapeake Bay, are pushing hard to restore oyster populations that once defined those waters, rebuilding habitat, improving water quality, protecting shorelines, and helping ensure that future generations will still know what a thriving Chesapeake looks like.

My guest today is Jen Sagan, and she's an important part of that vital effort. Jen is the oyster restoration manager for Friends of the Rappahannock, a nonprofit organization working to restore and protect the Rappahannock River that feeds the Chesapeake Bay through environmental guardianship, education, and hands-on oyster reef restoration. Originally from the mountains of New Jersey, Jen grew up visiting the Northern Neck of Virginia and immediately fell in love with the Chesapeake Bay and its wildlife.

She received a BS in marine science from Stockton University, focusing on the eastern oyster, and then returned to the Northern Neck in search of a career in oyster reef restoration. Friends of the Rappahannock provided the perfect opportunity for Jen to expand their oyster programs, and she's been planning and implementing reef restoration projects with partners in the Rappahannock River and its tributaries for about five years now.

As you'll hear, this work Jen leads isn't sterile or abstract. It's muddy, wet, sweaty, often exhausting, and deeply rewarding. In our very entertaining conversation, Jen reveals that her work is not just about oyster restoration, but also about stewardship, connection, and what happens when people stop seeing oysters as simply something to consume and start seeing them as something worth rebuilding as well. It's about discovery, problem-solving, and, of course, encouraging people to eat more oysters.

 So slip into your mud boots and button up your volunteer vest to hear about restoring oyster reefs, recycling shells, rebuilding living shorelines, engaging volunteers, the surprising way oysters help people reconnect with the water, and why the best way to care about a river is to get your hands wet and dirty in it, With marine scientist, oyster restoration manager, environmentalist, organizer, educator, and one of those people who loves to get wet and muddy with oysters, the slightly salty Jen Sagan.

 [bubbles]

Kevin: Jen Sagan, I am so happy to have you here. You know, we met, in Houston at the Oyster South Symposium, but I felt like I already knew you, because I've been watching you on social media, getting wet and muddy And it's like, wow, this person is really cool. So when we actually had a chance to meet, I was thrilled. And now I'm even more excited to have you as a guest on OYSTER-ology, so welcome.

Jen: Thanks, Kevin. I'm really excited to get to talk more and continue our conversations from there.

Kevin: You are with the Friends of the Rappahannock River. 

Jen: Yes. 

Kevin: And tell me what that organization is.

Jen: Yeah. Um, so Friends of the Rappahannock, I might refer to us as FOR here and there ... we are an environmental nonprofit, dedicated to the health of the Rappahannock Watershed, which is one of the rivers that leads to the Chesapeake Bay. So from the Blue Ridge Mountains to the Chesapeake Bay, we are doing a whole variety of projects to really just improve the health of the watershed So it's a wide range of things.but I specifically manage our oyster programs, so I am operating in the lower Rappahannock River, the tidal region, and running this oyster restoration program.

Kevin: And what is your title, uh, in that role?

Jen: I am our Oyster Restoration Manager, I've been working with FOR for about five years now. Um, they've been letting me kinda chase this oyster dream and expand our programs. So it's- Right ... it's been really successful.

Kevin: Right. tell me a little bit about your background and kinda what led you into this oyster world.

Jen: Yeah. I, uh, grew up in rural New Jersey, near the Delaware Water Gap, a really- Oh, yeah ... beautiful rural mountainous area, but I grew up visiting my grandparents who lived down in the northern neck of Virginia, where I am now, and I remember, uh, whenever we would visit them, they lived on a waterfront property, and there was this little tiny, tiny… we called it The Spit because it was a spit of land. It was just this little, teeny beach out in the water, and right by that little beach, there was one of the shellfish condemnation signs. ... and it was just kind of like a landmark to me. I remembered seeing it all the time as a kid. There's, like, the icons of oysters and mussels and such on there, and that was weirdly the thing that first kinda introduced me to oysters.

Kevin: Were you allowed to go pluck oysters and clams and other shellfish out of the water, or was the sign enough to kinda keep hands off?

Jen: I think for the most part it was hands off. Um, my grandfather, for a portion of time, did sort of an oyster gardening project, you know- Mm-hmm ... in cages off of his dock, so that's neat. Mm-hmm. But we definitely weren't just grabbing shellfish out of the water.

Kevin: Right. Did you eat shellfish as a kid?

Jen: I think, probably with where I lived most of the time, it wasn't as much of a cultural thing, so we didn't experience it. Yeah. My family wasn't necessarily s- particularly adventurous eaters either. I had my first oyster probably when I was graduating high school, about to go into college.

Kevin: Yeah. Tell me about that experience.

Jen: Um, it was interesting. I was definitely apprehensive, uh, because I didn't know a whole lot about oysters at that point still, I think, again, just because of the environment I grew up in, and it was, on the half shell, and I t- I think there's a lot of people who will be disappointed to hear this, but it was very gritty There was a lot of I don't know, sand or sediment, whatever was in there. But it was a, it was a crunchy oyster, so I wasn't necessarily thrilled.

Kevin: Yeah, nobody wants a crunchy oyster.

Jen: I agree. No. It's like...But

Kevin: it was good enough that you thought, "Okay, I can, I can do this," right? "I'll have more." 

Jen: I think it was definitely a step in my oyster development, for sure.

Kevin: And you decided at some point to focus on marine sciences in college.

Jen: Yeah. I've always loved the ocean. You know, it's one of those things I think a lot of people can relate, of just a natural fascination with it, and just an incredible environment, and I think naturally that led to a love for biology and the outdoors, and ultimately I went to Stockton University in South Jersey.  And I got a degree in marine science, and the whole time I was there I just, I had a focus on oysters.

Kevin: That's so interesting. Why oysters? When you consider all that's available in the Chesapeake and on the Jersey Shore, I mean, what drew you to oysters specifically?

Jen: They're so incredibly important to the ecosystem, but at that time in my life, I truly think I just connected them with the great memories of growing up visiting the Chesapeake Bay. Yeah. And that's what drew me to it.

Kevin: So tell me a little bit about the work that you do with Friends of the Rappahannock. I mean, you're running the oyster restoration program, but what does that mean? What do you do?

Jen: Yeah. It's a variety of things, for sure, but The very big overview of my job is essentially planning and then implementing projects that are ultimately restoring oyster populations in the Rappahannock River. one program that is possibly the most dirty, and horrible, and disgusting, but I need to advertise it as being a great, wonderful thing because it is- is our shell recycling program. which that was definitely something that Friends of the Rappahannock gave me the opportunity to start and develop, and now it is thriving, which is so rewarding. But essentially, oyster shell recycling is the heart of oyster restoration for my programs at least. It's collaboration with different restaurants in the area, different festivals that occur, even just everyday people eating oysters at home, and working to try and make it as accessible as possible for them to donate their oyster shells back to us. and that process ultimately is leading to us having oyster shells to use as a substrate, as a base for new oyster reefs to be able to thrive off of. Oyster shells are kind of, the heart of rebuilding these reefs.

Kevin: How did you start that program, and what caused you to decide, "Okay, oyster reef restoration is something I really wanna spearhead"?

Jen: When I got to Friends of the Rappahannock, I already had the interest in oyster restoration, I guess, because of my background and because of my time in college. But they truly gave me the tools to take it and run with it. Oyster restoration was already established, and growing, and that certainly made it a lot easier for me and my organization to make our way into it. I mean, throughout this I'll probably say it 100 times, but the partnerships are truly what makes this so successful. There's so many groups dedicated to oyster restoration and the health of the reefs that it's- You know, we wouldn't be able to do it as a solitary organization.

Kevin: Do you find that when you're knocking on the doors of restaurants and other places that generate oyster shells, that you have to compete with some of these other organizations to get the shells, or is there enough to go around, or, how do you get those shells?

Jen: I'll start with the is there enough to go around part of that, because that highlights the important issue that oyster shell is getting more and more difficult to obtain. it's a very important and increasingly rare resource, which is unfortunate, but that issue has led to many different groups now researching alternate substrate for oyster reefs.

 For the shell recycling portion of that, Organizations have been wonderful at working to kinda, I don't wanna say share the wealth because it's more that we are splitting the responsibility. For example, Chesapeake Bay Foundation will periodically forward someone's email to me if they ask about recycling at a restaurant in my watershed. CBF will just hand that off to me because they know I have it covered in the Rappahannock region. I think as the shell is getting harder to get. People are definitely having a bit of a tighter grip on it.

Kevin: They're my shells.

Jen: Yes. It's, it's very funny when I, like, talk to the general public, about some of, you know, the rareness of shells, they laugh because it's like, "Oh, there's politics to oyster shells," you know? That's weird.

Kevin: The politics of oyster shells.

Jen: It's, When you take a step back from it all, it's pretty bizarre. But it's vital to our work, and I am grateful that, you know, for the most part, everybody works together really well.

Kevin: So how does handling shells, putting your hands in the water, how does that kind of change how you see shell restoration, what does that impart that just merely talking about it or having a website can't explain?

Jen: It makes all the difference, and that's why as we've been growing, I've tried to place more of an emphasis on volunteer programs, uh, volunteers are amazing, and they make such a difference in our programs, but at the same time it's also that hands-on education and outreach. It's- ... could be the moment that this really clicks for someone. for example, you mentioned other outreach methods like reading about things, and that's great and all, but- Someone has to actively choose to go read those things Right ... which definitely does not always happen. When, for some of these programs, yes, of course you have to sign up and attend it, but, A, you're outside doing things, which is great for education in general.

Jen: And I've also had people maybe willingly, maybe unwillingly, bring a friend along or- ... a family member. 

Kevin: An unsuspecting victim.

Jen: Exactly. But then half the time, those people are the ones having a complete blast at this program, and maybe never had an oyster before, maybe never even heard of oyster restoration or knew why it was necessary. So that aspect of the hands-on, kind of outdoor education, is just so valuable. I mean- the sterile, idea of a classroom setting is definitely not the most effective way for everyone to understand these concepts.

Kevin: I'm so glad you said that because that is one of the things that I really wanna understand, is how the physical act of restoring oysters and reefs and doing the work that you do with volunteers, how does that change the way they see oysters, the way they see the river or the Chesapeake overall, and also how does it change themselves? What have you seen with that?

Jen: This has been a really unexpected reward for me. Um, I don't consider myself a people person, but- ... but when I'm running these programs, it is the coolest thing to see that moment where it clicks for someone. a lot of people say, like, everyone has an oyster story, you know?

it's so true, that you can find that connection, whatever it is. Even if it's, if they eat oyster stuffing at Thanksgiving every year with their family, but they never even thought about where those oysters are coming from. or, you know, visiting an Airbnb in the Northern Neck, and they see oysters attached to their dock pilings and, like, "What is that?" Um- it could be things as small as that, or- Yeah ... you know, people who do actively enjoy oysters and maybe know a little bit more of the environmental aspect of it. But- there really is that connection for every one of these guests, and it's really neat to see these experiences elevate that knowledge and understanding for them.

Kevin: All of a sudden, oysters become something very real and alive that they're handling.

Jen: Exactly. I mean, they're not- the most charismatic species by far. I mean, half the time They kinda just look like a rock, but it's, it really, like you said, it makes them, real for them.

Kevin: I mean, everybody likes petting a cat or a dog or a cute little pet, right? And oysters are little animals too, right?

Jen: You could pet them, I guess.

Kevin: So You have these programs where you wanna bring volunteers and the community into the work that you're doing to help out and also to learn. How do you get people? How do you attract people to come and do the work?

Jen: Yeah, that's honestly an ongoing challenge. When it gets down the rural tidal area where I'm actually doing this oyster work, it can be very, very challenging to either get the word out in general or get returned interest from the public on that. We're definitely working on it, trying to find what the best ways to attract people and interest is, but it can be challenging. This is definitely a vacation area. You know, people come here to retire and to enjoy the river. Right. Not necessarily to learn and do community service or volunteer projects.

Kevin: Do you find that people are either increasingly or decreasingly, drawn to kind of getting their hands dirty and wet, to sort of see where the food comes from? you know, there's the farm to table kind of movement where people actually wanna know the origins of their food and understand it better. Is that something that you're finding where you are with people that come down either on vacation or otherwise?

Jen: It definitely depends on the group of people. A lot of what I've noticed is if people are coming to the area to vacation, unfortunately there's usually not that interest in what's happening behind the scenes. Um- It is something that's trying to be changed a little bit with things like ecotourism and- trying to combine an enjoyable activity with the important messages of restoration and the environment behind it. but in general, for what I've noticed through volunteer programs at least, I don't know if it's because of COVID where we were all trapped inside a whole lot. Or maybe the message is getting out. Maybe people are concerned about the health of the bay and where the food's coming from. And there definitely has been more interest in the why, the what we're doing to solve these problems, and that's been really promising.

Kevin: Do you find that volunteers who come, come kind of thinking or expecting one thing about the work they're gonna do or about oysters or the river, and they leave thinking something else, something different?

Jen: There's definitely a lot of examples of that. I mean, when I post an oyster event that's going to happen, whether that's for educational purposes or for hands-on, getting dirty volunteering, it is going to be a certain type of person for the most part signing up for that. Yeah. And maybe that's a person who already has some background knowledge. But I have noticed especially if it's an event that is maybe more combined with an activity that's not as primarily focused on the restoration aspect of it. For example, in the past we've done leading a kayaking trip, but then I also talk to them about oysters, and events like those I think are very eye-opening because- it might not be as intimidating for someone to sign up for a kayaking trip if they're kayaking all the time anyway. They know they're gonna be outside enjoying the environment. But then I've seen so many reactions of, "Oh my gosh, I didn't know that. I had no idea," when we're actually talking about the oyster portion. So it's almost kind of like hiding vegetables in something delicious for a little kid, like you're sneaking the education in there.

Jen: it seems to work pretty well so far.

Kevin: Do you allow them to eat any oysters when they're helping volunteer?

Jen: Depends on the program. we had a really cool collaboration with, Steamboat Wharf Oyster Company. They have this really cool oyster lease that is accessible, where we paddled out to it, but it was shallow enough that they actually set up tables of oysters and hand-delivered to people in kayaks.

Kevin: Oh, that's awesome. 

Jen: That was one of my favorites, honestly. That was really cool. So I got to talk to them about the importance of, you know, the oyster farms and oyster restoration and everything, but they were also enjoying oysters and getting to paddle on a gorgeous day outside.

Kevin: That's really clever. 

Jen: It was. It was a really good event.

Kevin: Do you have a lot of repeats who w- volunteer once, and it's like, "I gotta keep doing this"?

Jen: Thankfully, yes, and they are... I... Oh my gosh, I owe everything to them. Like, It's maybe been three years of running volunteer programs now. Um, and when we first started, I did not expect much interest because of the challenge of s- of finding interest in this region. Um, but I've had shockingly dedicated volunteers from Fredericksburg who will drive two hours to come to programs every time I host them, it's mind-blowing, and it's so, so heartwarming to see that people care that much to go do something to benefit oyster restoration on their Saturday morning, you know? It's, it's really amazing.

Kevin: I'm trying to picture the scenario. A river, right, the Rappahannock River with the river banks and the trees along the banks, and that sort of thing, but it actually broadens and kind of flattens out into the tidal area where you're doing most of your work. Can you describe that area and what it looks like and feels like?

Jen: I can do my best, but I don't think it'll do it justice. I mean, oh my gosh, first of all, it's, it's gorgeous. I love it down here. But especially similar to, the rest of the Chesapeake Bay region, it is largely comprised of peninsulas. Everywhere you go is a separate peninsula. That's why it takes so long to drive everywhere. Mm-hmm. And honestly, going by boat is quicker. Yeah. Um, so because of that, there's a lot of shoreline. But there's also gorgeous established marshes, and we're bringing back the oyster reefs, and it's, truly a wonderful place to be. there are areas, for example,Lancaster County. They have been making some really big efforts to make waterfront public parks recently, which has been a huge development, and we're actually partnering with them to get an oyster setting tank for a spat on shell operation, at this park, and it'll be a public resource for a kayak launch, a fishing pier, and a pavilion for events. But it will also have this tank there where we can run our oyster restoration work, but it'll also be a public education tool, for anyone who visits the park. So that's a really exciting partnership coming soon as well.

Kevin: Are these tanks where you'll put oyster shell or live adult oysters in there? How does that. Work?

Jen: Yeah this is a good. Opportunity to explain shell recycling. It's a very cyclical ;process so starting with the shell recycling, right? You eat an oyster at a restaurant. That restaurant partners with us, gives us the shells Those shells are brought to a section down here in this tidal region of the Rappahannock where They sit out in the sun. until they get all of that gunk off from the restaurants essentially. And then from there, we host these volunteer programs where people will come and help us to make oyster bags, and these are made out of a mesh material, and essentially we're making a whole bunch of these shell bags , and the volunteers help us to make them all. Then we place 200 of those bags at a time into this large circular tank. I refer to it as an oyster jacuzzi because it's kinda just bubbling and circular- ... and looks like a jacuzzi. So it's this tank that is inputting water from the river or creek or whatever you're on, and it has an aerator that's keeping the water moving. You place 200 of those recycled shell bags in there, and you get the oyster larvae, so the earliest stages of an oyster.

Kevin: Microscopic at that point, right?

Jen: So small. It's-  I do 2 million at a time, and I can hold them in the palm of my hand. It's- it, it's mind-blowing. It's really wild. Yeah. It looks like this little pile of sand.

Kevin: Especially when you consider what they grow into, you know? I mean- Exactly ...

Jen: yeah ... which is such a cool process to watch. But we get those larvae from a hatchery, who they, you know, do that real nitty-gritty science of the brood stocks and actual, like, working with the reproductive side,

Kevin: So from there, we put those larvae into that tank with all the bags and the bubbling water, and they stay in there for about two weeks when the larvae start to settle on those recycled oyster shells. So once they land on those shells, they are called spat, or if I say spat on shell, that's what I'm talking about.

Jen: The reason this process is so very important and so very cool is that when you have all these little spat on the shell, it gives them that opportunity to then grow out into a nice cluster of mature oysters, which is ultimately what would be happening out in the river, in the bay, for natural reproduction, and it helps them to form that amazing three-dimensional reef structure, which then ultimately is what starts to provide that valuable habitat and starts to provide that shoreline protection. So we actually go and install them onto these reef projects at that point, and in doing so, we're not putting the bags of shell out there. We are cutting those bags open and just dumping the spat on shell out there.

Kevin: Oh, that's interesting. So when you actually put the shell in the water, wherever you are, you're actually freeing them- ... letting them loose from the bags, as opposed to stacking the bags up and, and securing them to the shoreline.

Jen: Exactly. So You've probably seen pictures of living shoreline projects where there are stacks of bags like that.

Kevin: Yeah.

Jen: In those instances, those are usually just plain shell bags at that point. They have the potential, if there is natural oyster reproduction in the area, they can act as a base, as a substrate for new oysters to land on. But generally, those are just plain shell, With this spat on shell, they already have the live oysters attached, and they're usually going to a project, maybe dumping them on top of the base of plain shell- Mm-hmm ... so that they're a little bit elevated off of, if it's a muddy bottom or something, gives them a better chance to succeed.

Kevin: Are you able to measure the, success of those efforts How do you monitor how well it's working?

Jen: Yeah. Monitoring is something that has always hurt my science heart a little bit because I don't do enough of it. Um- Yeahbut I do a combination of both subtidal reefs, so completely underwater, not coming out with the tides, and intertidal, where it's, maybe being exposed, throughout the day. And, of course, one of those is much easier to monitor than the other. Sure. so we have worked with different groups, like the Smithsonian Environmental Research Center, to do some monitoring they have GoPro cameras attached to a little stand that sinks down into the water. You leave it there for a few minutes, and you can kinda see- Mm-hmm ... what's happening with your oyster projects. I have also, this was a funnier process, I've borrowed old oyster tongs to just see if, what I can pull up off the bottom of our reefs. And, you know, it's so minimal that it's not really damaging anything. But it, we've pulled up these beautiful clusters of oysters in these restoration reefs, where you can see the multi-generational growth. You can see that they're reproducing and creating the nice clusters of multiple years of oysters, which is just, like- Yeah ... exactly what you wanna see.

Kevin: yeah, the living shoreline projects are really cool because you are creating a sill of oyster shell bags the perfect outcome there is that, you are in an area with naturally reproducing oysters that hopefully will land on those bags and start to form an even more effective reef structure in front of that shoreline to protect it, which is just, again, the coolest outcome.

Jen: It's so nice when it works that way.

Kevin: What role do oysters play in the living shoreline?

Jen: So in a living shoreline, you are supplementing some sort of sandy substrate that's appropriate. You're planting marsh grasses to hopefully hold that substrate in place and reproduce and s- provide even more support, and help to attenuate wave action as well. And then in front of that all, you're making essentially a little wall or a sill- of bags of oyster shell. Um, other materials like riprap or other things could be used, but the oysters are more a part of that natural option. So they are, a very just structural component. They're helping to break up any wave action that might be coming in and constantly eroding and taking away that sand and, contributing to that erosion When oyster reefs are a beautiful, thriving, three-dimensional structure in front of shorelines anyway, they would naturally be doing that. They would be naturally helping to break up that wave action and protect the shorelines. Yeah. This is giving them that little bit of boost to ensure that that will happen, because unfortunately the reefs are generally depleted enough that they're not doing that.

Kevin: What do you think about these manmade substrates that try and create as natural an environment as possible?

Jen: It is more challenging because it requires a level of permitting that oyster shell typically does not. So it can be expensive and time-consuming to use these other methods, which is unfortunate but understandable if you're putting other materials into the waterway. But in terms of success, they have seemed to work very well but, it definitely... can be a more challenging process to actually put into place.

Kevin: You're a nonprofit organization. How do you get funding, and is it mostly public monies or private donations,

Jen: My oyster programs specifically are all grant funded. and I'm extremely thankful that we've been able to get money for me to expand these programs. And, again, FOR has been really supportive of applying for these grants It's been really successful. Of course, with them being grants, it varies year to year on if we get them- Sure ... what's available. so it's always a little bit unsteady of what may or may not happen, but- for the most part, it has been going well.

Kevin: When it comes to volunteers do you find it challenging to express to them the importance of what they're doing when you know, going out and seeing reefs that, where the spat's actually growing and attracting more, that's a long, slow process. Do you have a hard time with volunteers not seeing the fruits of their labor?

Jen: That's a fantastic question, because that's something I have been actively trying to improve on. you know, the point may not get across if you are only shoveling oyster shell into bags for me- and that's it, you know? Like we talked about earlier, yes, I can tell them about the process, and I can show them photos that I have, but it is not the same thing as holding a cluster of mature oysters from the spat on shell from that recycled oyster shell in the bags that you made, ultimately turning into this awesome result. and it can be tough, because the timeline of oyster restoration in the summertime with the spat on shell program can be unpredictable. I'm totally at the whim of the timeline of the hatcheries, of when their larvae is ready- which is at the whim of environmental conditions, which is- you know, who knows? Um-

Kevin: Really hard to mess around with Mother Nature on these issues, right?

Jen: So it can totally be hard to say a date on a calendar that we're going to hold an event, But ultimately, my goal is to have people understand and see that the shell that you ate at the restaurant is going to the shell bagging, is going to the tank with the larvae, is going to these beautiful clusters of spat on shell onto a reef. I want them to see that circle,

Kevin: Do you do a lot of videos or other kinds of things to show people and help them understand that?

Jen: In recent years, definitely, and that's where my social media presence has come in, for sure. Because like you said, otherwise even when I have people there in person, I can't show them every step of the process And- ... this video evidence really ties it together in a way that I can't do with my programming.

Kevin: Walk me through a typical kind of day in the life of Jen Sagan with Friends of the Rappahannock.

Jen: The funny thing is I don't think I have a typical day in the life. I don't know, maybe that's the oyster world in general. Um .

Kevin: You may be right.

Jen: yeah. But, it could vary across a lot of things. In the wintertime, I am doing a lot of the computer work of, maybe writing proposals for grants or, connecting with different partners um- doing outreach, doing education. And then as the weather starts to warm, it's a lot more preparation for that fun stuff, getting outside and doing this hands-on restoration, these hands-on volunteer days with people. So I really think every day of a week could be different, which it's exciting. It's good for the ADHD brain, for sure.

Kevin: Do you find, in the warmer seasons, that you're in the water a lot?

Jen: Yeah. which is, such a blessing. it's the fun part- ... of the job, for sure. because all of these oysters, they are being grown in, for the most part, tanks on land. We do also have- some in cages, but the majority is that spat on shell operation. And any time that a tank is ready to go, I'm going out in the boat to install them onto a project. And-those days are dirty and sweaty and long and messy, but they are the best.

Kevin: What would you say is the dirtiest, sweatiest, muddiest kind of thing that you find yourself doing on one of those days?

Jen: Um, it is usually the actual installation of the spat on shell oysters. I mean- They're gonna be covered in water and some sort of something from the creek. there will be crabs and fish and little sea squirts and, you know, I, I'm covered in mud all the time.

Kevin: And how does that, feel when you do that.

Jen: It's my realization that I am in the job I want to be in. Um, it may not look glamorous by any means, it's not, but, getting that opportunity to have at least a portion of my job being outside on the water, it's refreshing, you know? I'm not sitting at a desk every day of the year. I have a day where I'm tromping home with piles of mud behind me, and I'm okay with that. It's- ... it's really fun.

Kevin: Do you ever stop and just sort of reflect on the bigger picture and what you're adding to it, like what you're actually a part of?

Jen: I have always been in awe every time I go to some sort of oyster event It just makes my heart feel so full to see all of these groups of so many different areas of the oyster world coming together for this same purpose, and it's just, the network is the coolest thing ever. And I think it gives that aspect of hope, too, that, okay, if there's this many of us from this many places involved, we have to be making a difference. It's really rewarding.

Kevin: That's really cool. what is a great day for you at work?

Jen: Great day, 100%, is when I get to go on the water. I don't care how it turns out, if I am out there, I'm feeling grateful and knowing that this is kind of the result of all the work I've been putting into it throughout the whole year. It's... Oysters going in the water is like, "We did it."

Kevin: Yeah. And what about a shitty day? 

Jen: It's usually in the wintertime, and it's usually when I've been on a computer staring at a screen for a week straight, And that work is so important. It's necessary, but I truly think we should all just be taking little daily doses of stepping outside every so often, because it can be so draining to be staring at a screen for that long.

Kevin: Yeah, So the Chesapeake Bay, 300 years ago, used to be so thick with oyster reefs that ships ran aground, and you could almost walk across parts of the bay, and that's gone, of course, for a number of reasons. Is the work that Friends of the Rappahannock, and other organizations is it really going to make a difference in restoring the bay, maybe not to what it once was, but to something much healthier?

Jen: I think the first part of this is that we all live downstream. You know, the, the work we're doing in these tributaries of the bay are definitely contributing to the bay as a whole, you know? I would love to have something where we can have quantitative data of, "Look, it's working." Yeah. Because we see the results For example, if I'm working in a creek that's a tributary of the Rappahannock, we have seen the progression of no natural oyster reproduction happening to now it's happening, and in some areas, even underwater grasses start growing. These indicators that these efforts are doing something. But with the bay being so, so large, it's harder to monitor.

Kevin: And it's kind of the confluence of all of those efforts coming together to improve the overall health of the entire estuary and watersheds.

Jen: Absolutely. And I mean, there’s also the oyster aquaculture side of things. I mean, I'm actually a vegetarian. I don't eat oysters, but I know- 

Kevin: No kidding. Yeah,

Jen: I know many who do, and I support that. And It's so funny because a point I always make is, okay, my whole job is oyster restoration. I've been a vegetarian for years. I want you to eat oysters. Right. I want you to go support your local oyster farmers. I want you to enjoy them. It is so important, and those oyster farms, those aquaculture groups they are restoration. I think a common misconception is like, oh, the environmental groups versus the kinda commercial side of things. Yeah. And that is not the case. They work hand-in-hand. Aquaculture is restoration.

Kevin: That's, uh, very interesting because I wanted to ask you about si- uh, what you think are some of the big misconceptions about this, and that, uh, explains a lot. Do you find that they tend to kinda ram horns a little bit about the water that you're using, the bottom that you're using, anything like that, or is it really more of a, collaborative thing.

Jen: We have incredible partners who are involved in both, wild harvest and oyster farming. They care about the health of the water that they are growing oysters in. They care about the success of oyster populations. It's natural that they would want to ensure that our work is successful. And so many of them have been incredible partners playing a part in the work that I do for oyster restoration. That is so important and such a common misconception, and it's sad because on both sides for example, I had people come up to me and be like, "My dad's a waterman, and you're, like, screwing him over, basically." Like I'm like, "No, I literally work with your father. Like, he helps us- Yeah ... with restoration." It's pretty bizarre, and I think that all kinda comes back to the outreach and education side of things and explaining that, like you said, it's collaboration. It's a community of people trying to achieve the same goal.

Kevin: Because these traditional oyster farmers are stewards of the bottom and, the bay as well, right?

Jen: Exactly. You hit the nail on the head when you said they are stewards of the river, of the bay, of the oyster populations. They want them to succeed as much as we do. Yeah.

Kevin: What does success in the work that you and Friends of the Rappahannock and these other organizations look like in, let's say, 10 or 20 years?

Jen: starting to see those very physical results of the work we're doing, seeing more oysters appearing on rip rap, on dock pilings. Seeing those generational growth of populations on oysters that I pull up off the bottom. I think those are all indicators of, it's working. And the hope is that the water quality will improve and the populations- Yeah ... will thrive.

Kevin: Yeah. I wanna talk a little bit about Slightly Salty Sagan, which, is your persona, your identity on social media. Tell me about why you do that, 'cause that's personal work, right?

Jen: Yeah, that is not affiliated with Friends of the Rappahannock, but of course- Right ... I'm showcasing all my work that I do with Friends of the Rappahannock. I started my Instagram account because I found that I was taking these really cool pictures and videos of the oyster process, and it just, makes me smile. You know? It makes me so excited to see it, and I just wanted other people to see that full circle process of this restoration work, and seeing it start with the person eating the oyster, all the way through this multi-level process of ending up with healthy oysters going onto a reef. And it can be so difficult to show people that full process, that I started realizing that these videos and photos that I was taking were kind of the way to make that all come together. And at the same time, it's that necessary education and outreach to the public to show that, A, this is necessary work, B, this is how it's happening, this is what's going into it, here's how you can help. And also just kinda breaking some of the stigmas around oysters and oyster restoration, you know? One of the first posts I did, included the, myth about eating oysters during R months. you know, these are all things that, yes, they're out there, but there were so many people in my following, they were like, "Ooh, I never knew you could eat oysters during the summer," you know? And it's that little bit of a boost of education for these things that people otherwise just would not be seeing.

Kevin: Yeah. So people have misconceptions, but people also, I think, often tend to romanticize a little bit about this. Is part of what you do... I mean, I love your social media stuff, I look at it and I smile because it's like you wanna get muddy. You wanna be dirty, and holding ragged shells, and standing in the muck. I think it's awesome. Is part of that to kind of bring some reality to the romantic- concept of this shimmering plate of oysters on ice with a little mignonette and maybe some champagne, and you know,the other side of the shell.

Jen: It is funny what a stark contrast it is. Um, but for my account, yes, it definitely is kind of a peek into this side of the world, and I've certainly- Yeah ... seen, oyster farmers who are doing something similar, but also still advertising the oyster, you know? It's like this is all this love that goes into this organism that, maybe ends up at the wedding you're attending. And in the meantime, of course, I'm putting them back in for restoration, so it is the labor of love behind these projects, for sure.

Kevin: So what I see in your social media is that in addition to showing these realities and what it's like and the work you do, you're really telling a story. and explaining so people understand the big picture. Do you think of yourself like that?

Jen: That's certainly my goal. I don't know if it started off that way, but that's definitely how it's developed, and I think that the oyster world just has a beautiful story to tell, and I am trying to get that across through photography, through taking videos, and going back to that connection with these people who are involved with the oysters. There is a way to connect with everybody about oysters, and if that's from them scrolling through Instagram, and this video pops up, and it makes something click in them, that's fantastic, you know? at the same time is just a personal pleasure for me. I take such pride and joy in this work, and seeing these results kinda come to life in some of these videos that I make is really... it's, it's a whole separate reward for me in addition to just doing the work itself and seeing the oysters go into the water.

Kevin: Yeah, I think it's pretty amazing.

Jen: Thank you.

Kevin: What's the one message that you would give everybody who's not involved in oysters about this whole thing?

Jen: Eat more oysters. Which is a- Ah ... crazy take from someone in restoration. But I truly believe that marketing the oysters, making them a more vital and everyday aspect of people's lives and encouraging them to enjoy them will create that spark, will create that interest of, okay, yes, you're supporting the oyster farms, you're supporting the aquaculture side of things, but then that still leads to the conversations about restoration and understanding why it's important. It makes them care about the oysters, which ultimately makes them care about oyster restoration.

Kevin: Jen, I could talk to you all day long. you have this energy and this ebullience about the work you do, And I, encourage people to check you out @slightlysaltysagan on Instagram and other socials and to get involved with Friends of the Rappahannock, and, you know, eat more oysters.

Jen: Thank you so much, Kevin.

Kevin: That's it for this episode of OYSTER-ology. My thanks to Jen Sagan of Friends of the Rappahannock for joining me today and sharing her passion for oysters, restoration, and stewardship.

What I took away from our conversation is that restoring a river rarely happens through one big action. It actually happens shell by shell and person by person. And over time, those small efforts can add up to something much larger and long-lasting. So maybe this is the moment for each of us to volunteer and do our part. And if you're lucky enough to have a chance to get involved, you may just find that somewhere between the mud, the sweat, and the work, a river becomes something you care about much more than you ever expected. Links to Friends of the Rappahannock website, as well as Slightly Salty Sagan are included in our show notes along with the transcript of this episode, so be sure to check it out. And please follow OYSTER-ology wherever you listen to podcasts. The more followers we get, the more others will discover us, too. And share it with other people. The more who hear it, the more may get involved in restoration, so let's push that goal together. And as an important reminder from Jen...

Jen: Eat more oysters,

Kevin: Thanks so much for listening, and be sure to join us again next time when we pry open the shell of another interesting OYSTER-ology topic.

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